I plead guilty. I am guilty of an
egregious sin of omission, for which I owe every reader of this blog
(especially those SF veterans I know are reading it and
critiquing their young protege), a profound apology. I am
guilty of the sin of hubris. You see, one of the critical lessons
pounded into young Special Forces candidates' heads during the
Q-Course (at least when I went through JFKSWCS, and I assume
still) is that, besides all the cool tactical training and
gunfighter schooling, you have a moral obligation to make sure the
host nation (HN) forces you are training/advising know, understand,
and practice, the Law of Land Warfare. I placed too much faith in the inherent morality of the American patriot movement.
There is an old cliche that there are
no rules in a war. That is, to put it as mildly as I am capable,
utter nonsense. Every war, from Cain and Abel's sibling rivalry,
until today, has been moderated by rules. Too often, throughout
history, of course, there have been acts committed that, anyone but
Satan himself would agree were crimes against humanity. Even our own
nation's military has committed these. The legal crutch of precedence
however, does not justify these acts, for they are unjustifiable. It
certainly does not justify future actions of immorality by any
so-called Liberty Resistance Movement, whose sole claim to legitimacy
can be said to be the moral high ground.
There are seven basic legal principles
that are supposed to bind any and all actions by contemporary U.S.
military forces. They are:
- Observances of fundamental human rights will recognize the dignity and worth of the individual and the fundamental freedom of all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion. Human rights violations will not be tolerated. As with violations of the law of war, U.S. soldiers will report human rights violations when they become aware of them.
- Civilians shall be treated humanely and may not be used to shield military operations.
- EPWs (Enemy Prisoners of War) and civilian detainees will be treated humanely and IAW (In Accordance With) the provisions of the Geneva Conventions.
- U.S. soldiers are entitled to similar humane treatment should they fall into the enemy's hands.
- Orders to commit war crimes are illegal and must be disobeyed.
- Soldiers who violate the law of war will be held responsible for their actions. Superiors who order violations of the law of war are criminally and personally responsible for such orders, as are subordinates who carry out the orders.
- Weapons, munitions, and techniques calculated to cause unnecessary pain and suffering are forbidden.
Sherman's March to the Sea:
A war crime, writ large, by any sane
man's definitions. Sherman's men burned civilian homes, slaughtered
livestock, and left an entire region of their non-combatant
countrymen destitute and exposed to the elements and ravages of
winter. Any "southron" knows the stories by heart, because
they're still engraved, deeply, by the points of bayonets, on the
soul of the South.
The firebombings of Dresden, atomic
bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, et al:
A war crime, albeit considered
justified at the time, due to the limits of technology, and the fact
that the actual targets were war-time industrial facilities.
Nevertheless, any planner with sense should have anticipated the loss
of civilian life that would occur. Any leader should have considered
that and cancelled the operations. Would it have led to a harder
fight, and more GIs lost in combat? Yes. Would it have lengthened the
war, and required a larger expenditure of Allied human capital? Yes.
Would it have been the more moral course of action? Yes. I would even
argue that it would have been less costly in the long view of
history, because the collective guilt we as a culture have felt
since, led to 60+ years of propping up the defenses and economies of
both Germany and Japan.
Do I expect regime security forces to
adhere to the above rules in a case of armed civil war within the
U.S? (Do I have "dumb motherfucker" tattooed on my
forehead?)
The point is not that, "Well, they
did it at Waco and Ruby Ridge, so we should be able to do it too!"
The point is not that "the ends
justify the means," because they don't.
The point is that, there are several
key issues that must be recognized, in regard to this specific topic,
in an UW environment. All the pontificating by Walter Mitty's and
armchair generals and keyboard commandos on the internet to the
contrary, these are immutable realities in unconventional warfare.
- You will not win if you abuse the sensibilities of the civilian populace. Yes, the regime will have the mass media on their side. They may even manage to "shut down" the internet (people who fear that eventuality give, I believe, the government entirely too much credit). They cannot stop people from talking however, no matter how Orwellian their systems become. People notice what actually happens, and they talk about it. If the good guys are playing by good guy rules, and the regime is stomping on puppies and smacking infants heads against door frames, people will talk about it, and it will lend support to the resistance in the long term. If, on the other hand, the "good guys" are murdering mothers and children, because "they support their stormtrooper dad/husband," people will notice that too, and it will rob the resistance of their moral high ground in the eyes of the public.
- Killing family members does NOT "demoralize" the fighters. It pisses them off, and makes them want retribution. Look at our experiences in Afghanistan and Iraq, for just the most recent examples. We inadvertently drop a JDAM on a village, and suddenly enemy recruitment numbers go through the roof. We piss on some holy books and every Mohammned, Salah, and Osama in the Islamist world is trekking across the mountains to strap Semtex to his chest and strike a blow against the infidel. It's not just a Muslim thing, folks. I'm a pretty laid back, chill kind of guy in day-to-day life. I walk away from fights every chance I get. Fuck with my wife or kid though, and it'll take a god-damn Abrams running me over to stop me from gouging your eyes out and skull-fucking you to death. What makes you think the local stormtrooper is any different? The fact that he doesn't recognize what he's doing is immoral and illegal, or doesn't care, doesn't mean he doesn't love his wife and kids.
- It's immoral to target non-combatants. There is no belief system I know of, anywhere in the world (even orthodox Islam) whose religious doctrinal texts says it's okay to murder people. Targeting non-combatants is murder. Killing in self-defense? Perfectly moral, perhaps even a moral imperative (I believe so). Killing in pre-emptive self-defense? Still moral. If I know a guy is hunting me, why shouldn't I be allowed to hunt and kill him first? Killing some woman because she married a young man who grew up to become your town commissar? Murder. Hell, maybe she despises what he's become just as much as you do, and is looking for a way to do her part. You don't know.
I'm not going to make this into some
long-drawn out lecture article. The men I know who have experienced
war and violence outside of the movie screen, don't feel the need to
shed blood needlessly. Our hands have enough blood on them. I don't
have nightmares about the men I've killed, and I'll not hesitate to
kill again if necessary. I'll even run to the sound of the guns to
protect my family, friends, and community. I will not go looking for
the fight though, and I will never condone, nor even entertain the
notion, of killing innocents. In my experience, that is best
relegated to the would-be tough guys who haven't experienced the
reality of watching someone bleed out in the dirt, wondering why they
drew the short straw that day. We all have a personal moral code we
have to adhere to. Mine doesn't condone murder. Mine demands
protection of the innocent, even when I despise someone they love.
I'd rather "throw my life away" for a moral stand,
protecting some douchebag's wife or kids, than live to be 110. At
least my children will know I lived and died my beliefs, and stood up
for morality.
Nous Defions!
John Mosby
Thank you
ReplyDeleteHis
+1 for life.
ReplyDeleteSorely needed. Thank you for this.
ReplyDeleteAP
I agree with almost all of your post, JM. Your point that the families of the evil often have no choice in the matter is true, and even if they do, it doesn't matter. I couldn't actively seek to harm them, and would find it difficult to live with myself if they became collateral damage due to my actions. I apologize if earlier posts gave a different impression.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, although I have never intentionally hurt a woman in my life, I look at females such as Nancy Pelosi, Barbara Boxer, Diane Feinstein, and others of their ilk, and the evil that they do, and I believe I perceive a difference. One that would permit me to make a choice I have never made before.
I feel certain this would be considered "dirty fighting" by most people, yet to me it seems it would be justified, considering the harm they have done and still seek to do. I may be an "armchair commando", as I have never seen combat, just the violence a peace officer deals with on the streets of a large city, but I'm not certain that makes my choices any less valid or moral.
The determining factor for me is what we might call "innocence". The women I listed are hardly innocent, and deserve some sort of consequence for their willingness to ruin the lives of all of us by their choices. If that makes this armchair commando a "dirty fighter", I stand guilty as accused.
After (IF!) the smoke clears Brother: at the end of a rope, after the "people's tribunal". Engaging these folks with combat action will fuel the fire against us.
DeleteMercy (common decency for that matter) goes a long way. Che Guevara himself wrote that enemy soldiers should be stripped of all war-making materials, then released. Civilians are never to be killed (though he had a hard time practicing that bit).
ReplyDeleteEven the Ottoman Turks, who sacked Constantinople in 1453, were said to be more humane than the Italian Crusaders (sacked the same city, THEIR city, 200 years prior) because they stopped pillaging after three days.
Never forget the Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, who spoke these words while fighting against the Germans: "While it is within your power, be a descent man."
Che was a murderous puke and was well known for head shooting a landowner and taking over the property, poor choice. Mike Hoare kept him bottled up on the mountains like a rabbit and Felix Rodriegez wears his watch. While on the beach at the Bay of Pigs waving a pistole he shot himself in the face and was awarded "Hero of the Revolution," piss on him.
DeleteWW-II, Dad drove a B-29. General Kenney much respected and their goal always to literally put it down the smokestack if possible. Based on things learned in Europe the directive to go down to 8,000' and create self-energizing firestorms with incendiaries among the populace (many of which raids killed more than Hiroshima & Nagasaki combined) was despised. Not because of the increased risk at lower altitude (which was very real) but because they knew it was wrong. Professionals know better. So as Kenney was respected, LeMay was deemed a monster and widely loathed. Besides, anyone who's paid attention knows that if you lose popular support you're screwed.
ReplyDeletePlease fore give me for not asking your permission before I acted. I posted a copy of this, in its entirety and unedited with a link to a site where there was a discussion going on about the 'Will to Kill'. Being a VET the tone of the said discussion was starting to concern me, so I acted.
ReplyDelete~out
Bravo,sir!!
ReplyDeleteAnon 1658: No sweat. Can you email me a link (don't post it here, just email it) to the conversation? Call me a suicidal feline.....nousdefionsranger@yahoo.com
ReplyDeleteND,
JM
Done.
DeleteAnon 1658: No sweat. Can you email me a link (don't post it here, just email it) to the conversation? Call me a suicidal feline.....nousdefionsranger@yahoo.com
ReplyDeleteND,
JM
Anon 1658: No sweat. Can you email me a link (don't post it here, just email it) to the conversation? Call me a suicidal feline.....nousdefionsranger@yahoo.com
ReplyDeleteND,
JM
Excellent. Thank you.
ReplyDeleteKilling family members does NOT "demoralize" the fighters. It pisses them off, and makes them want retribution.
ReplyDeleteAmen.
Jack Hinson's One-Man War, A Confederate Sniper
http://www.namsouth.com/viewtopic.php?t=2406&highlight=sniper
"Jack Hinson's neutrality was shattered the day Union patrols moved in on his land, captured two of his sons, accused them of being bushwhackers, and executed them on the roadside. The soldiers furthered the abuse by decapitating the Hinson boys and placing their heads on the gateposts of the family estate. He commissioned a special rifle, a heavy-barreled .50-caliber weapon designed for long-range accuracy. He said goodbye to his family, and he took to the wilderness seeking revenge. Hinson, nearly sixty years of age, alone, and without formal military training, soon became a deadly threat to the Union. A Confederate sniper, he made history after single-handedly bringing down an armed Union transport and serving as a scout for Nathan Bedford Forrest. A tenacious and elusive figure, Hinson likely killed more than one hundred Union soldiers, recording the confirmed deaths on the barrel of his rifle with precision."
Two very quick points of clarification. Firstly, to say that 'The point is not that "the ends justify the means," because they don't.' is simply wrong. Of course the ends justify the means, what else would justify the means? The correct question to ask is "do the ends justify any means?" and the answer to that is almost always no. We tailor our means to our ends.
ReplyDeleteSecondly, your argument is abstract because you, like so many pundits, refuse to name the enemy. If your assumption is that patriot forces will be arrayed against what are now U.S. military forces, you have jumped to a remarkable and probably erroneous conclusion about the future. Others consider that the "opfor" (as the couch commandos like to say) is really an "army" of government functionaries belonging to agencies like the EPA, FDA, USDA, Dept of Labor, IRS, DOE, DOJ, and so forth. These are the real enemy troops and, yes, they do have police powers and guns to back them up, but they are certainly not military. It may be immoral, as you say, to target non-combatants, but by all means let us define who is and who is not a combatant in this civil war.
Well said. I agree with your listing of .gov criminal agencies. Would you agree that elected officials such as Graham, Pelosi, Levin, McCain, Snowe, Boxer, Casey, Toomey and nearly the entire elected, ruling elite fall into the category of enemy combatants ? One step further....are not those citizens who have consistently supported the ruling elite like McCain and the Clintons, are THEY not enemy combatants ? For they have given aid and comfort (votes & political donations) to the enemy (elected, long-term incumbents), have they not ?
DeleteYes, I agree about defining the enemy. But the enemy, to me, are those who rob us of our Liberty. Not just appointed bureaucrats but both the electors and the elected. Remember....democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what is for dinner.
What a tangled web, eh ?
DAN III
Pennsylvania
Look up the definition of 'combatant' and then explain how a citizen voting for "the Clintons" falls under same.
DeleteU Kenny, Is simple. The guy with the gun trying to kill you is a COMBATANT , the person WITHOUT a wepon who is hideing or runing away is a NON- COMBATANT . Shoot the guy with the gun ,its war. Shoot the one WITHOUT THE GUN its MURDER. Get It? IF it gets sporty, and any of you assholes out there want to cap civies ; and we catch you, AMF. We WILL NOT be nice about this shit.Theft, rape, murder,a good officer deal with it ON THE SPOT. Most offten with his side arm.--- Ray
DeleteIt must be special to be in such a black and white world. Anyone who imagines such clear distinctions will hold under civil war conditions has never studied any civil war, anywhere. I particularly draw your attention to Ireland before 1940 (before the IRA became just another criminal gang) for examples. Or perhaps you imagine that only the enemy state retains the power of execution and those who oppose it only the right of self-defense. Good luck winning with that approach.
DeleteThank you Mosby, Spot on. ---Ray
ReplyDeleteIt is one thing to go off to foreign lands and kill them all and let God sort them out. National pride and such in the face of occupiers. It is another thing when your neighbor in your own country is actively engaging in enslaving you, whether by passive vote, aiding and abetting the TP'sTB in many "noncombatant" forms, or actively engaging in slinging bullets your way. There is a good healthy dose of AmeriKans who think it is perfectly fine for some .gov goon to stomp puppies and beat the hell out of citizens... and they won't cry when it happens to you, nor change their minds. They are no more or less your enemies and a great number of them do not and will not want their hearts and minds changed. Does this mean I advocate the wholesale slaughter of what you call non-combatants? No. But it certainly will have to be played by ear. Is my neighbor wearing (or not wearing) a citizen propaganda corps arm band sans rifle? Combatant. Is the local airwaves being saturated with gov anti-patriot propaganda? Combatant. We need to face the fact that there is and will be non-aggressive non-gun slinger combatants. That doesn't mean we have to kill their whole family... but it does mean that they may have to be killed/snatched in their own homes in front of their own family. It is not something that we want to practice... but it is something that will be necessary from time to time.
ReplyDeleteThe sin of the Jews for one was to be influenced by those nations and peoples who occupied the land given to the them by God. They never did finish their business.
Again... I'm not saying go to .gov's home and kill his wife and children. Unless they are active combatants. And one need not be toting a rifle to be a combatant. So maybe we do need to identify who IS NOT and who IS a combatant?
"one need not be toting a rifle to be a combatant. So maybe we do need to identify who IS NOT and who IS a combatant?"
DeletePeople who do useful public services are not combatants, but the garbageman/road worker/bus driver all have radios to call in response, and so are part of the System. Are they or are they not combatant targets? Woman with a stroller (baby, or wheeled explosive)? Irregular warfare leaves a lot of judgement up to the shooter or bomb placer. Do it wrong and your side (civilian support auxiliary) hates you for killing/wounding their friends/family who are gardening, shooting pests, or trying to barter for some salt.
Who, for sure, is a combatant? Observe behavior to be sure. Have good binoculars.
Well put B'USA on the definition of combatants. That being said,most likely it will be out of everyone's hands soon enough and karma is a *female mutt*. I expect that it will each according to his temperment at the moment.
ReplyDeleteAfter reading this yesterday, and seeing only one comment, I hesitated to step up to this Tar Baby. Twenty comments later, here goes:
ReplyDelete"The Law Of Land Warfare", all comments, principles, and precendents to the contrary, is and always has been, farce. Papal edicts forbade bloodletting, so fighting priests used a mace, because bloodlessly crushing skulls was apparently holier than sinfully gutting them with a hand-and-a-half sword. The differentiation was apparently lost on the godless casualty from the rival prince.
In more contemporary times, bombing civilians is supposedly bad. Baaaaaaad.
Yet we've done it in EVERY war we've waged, up until the last drone strike this week/month. Total number of pilots to object to "unlawful" mission orders before the Dresden raids: the same as the number of drone pilots court-martialed for refusing to engage: zero. In 1991, Gen. Schwarzkopf joked about the near miss on "the luckiest man alive" as an LGB took out an Iraqi bridge. Collateral damage near miss, ho-hum.
Are there things we - or anyone - ought not do in war? Certainly. Are there laws that will be used to prosecute you, whether on the side of the victor or the vanquished? Absolutely yes. Are both of those the same things? Sometimes. What are those things? That gets a good bit foggier.
But when I'm the critter getting shoved, when push comes to shove, and my life is on the line, am I going to depend on the Constitution and a lawyer to save me in a situation where lawful government either doesn't exist or is even part of the problem?
HELL NO.
Truth be told, if you have recourse to a functional justice system, for any other event than immediate self-defense, you probably aren't in a situation where you should be bearing arms in an insurgency anyways, are you? Which I kind of understood was what we were all discussing.
"Hearts and minds" assumes the existence of some probably-mythical group of neutral third parties that may not, and probably won't, exist, come the day that we cease to live in a constitutional republic.
That much is common sense. I adhere to the Constitution, and centuries-long common law jurisprudence. But violate them, or me, and you won't be dealing with a "keyboard commando", but a tiger by the tail.
And as Mark Twain wryly observed, "A man who picks up a cat by the tail, learns something which he cannot learn in any other way."
As to who is a combatant, our last national experience with civil war relates the parable of the peace-loving man in Virginia circa 1863, who didn't want trouble with anyone, so as he passed near a battle, he wore a blue jacket, and gray trousers.
He was riddled with bullets from both sides.
Best Regards,
Aesop
It's not a matter of legality.
DeleteIt's a matter of morality.
Laws are derived from morality.
Not the other way around.
Also, there will be "mythical" third AND fourth AND fifth parties.
Civillian enemy sympathiser.
Civillian ally sympathiser.
Civillians unaffected directly.
Where you get the idea that "hearts and minds" will be irrelevant is beyond me. Certainly it's not from experience.
I think you've missed the point, because you went straight back to "bad people have done bad stuff so that means we can do whatever we want."
John
ReplyDeleteYour pledge and admonishment to avoid harming the "innocent" family's of the enemies arrayed
against freedom and the republic is noble and moral. However the violent actors whose families
you would spare will not return that favor. Moral high ground really only exists till the balloon goes up
and the bloodshed starts. After the dance starts it will eventually end.... and all that really matter when it
ends is who won....not how.
The agents of evil are assaulting, abusing and killing the innocents NOW....and the real hostilities
have not commenced. Imagine how ruthless they will be once the leashes are let go and the gloves come off. Your council is essentially a recomendation to fight for freedom while willing accepting a self imposed handicap. It's a recipe for defeat.
The larger point of moral conduct in a conflict is very appropriate, and Mosby is entirely correct that the adherence to the Laws of Land Warfare help ensure FREFOR would stay on "the moral high ground" in any conflict. Especially if one takes the long view of remaining true to "objective Truth" and being able to stand by one's actions in the hereafter. It's not "all about me" when it comes to a fight, and that's a point missed by some out in the patriot movement.
ReplyDeleteUsing the excuse of, "The other side isn't being moral" doesn't cut it for justification of immoral actions by FREFOR. Period.
That said, thanks for this necessary and validating post.
I beg to differ. The Khmer Rouge did every atrocity mentioned and won and then began using plastic bags to kill the civilian population because bullets were to expensive.
ReplyDeleteStalin isolated whole populations in the Ukraine and starved them out, killed people on a whim and invented the term Gulag and was loved and venerated by the Russian people even to this day. Men being lined up against the wall to be shot would say, "If comrade Stalin knew what you were doing, he would stop this!"
On and on the examples go of rulers and rebels who commit atrocities and win. There are even examples if individuals making a difference in this way, Vlad the Impaler comes to mind when he impaled 2000 Turks alive, set a great picnic in the midst of them and invited the Turk commanders to lunch. The groans of the dying he called "music" to the Turks faces and for 350 years the Turks never invaded his land.
I agree that any freedom movement has to restrict itself to targeted assassinations and small unit combat, but as to rules....history is flexible.
War is politics by other means. Or some shit like that. Here's the skinny as I see it folks. Those that seek to oppress you, those that drain you via the tax system, those that live off the sweat you drop during toil without sweating themselves are not going to magically awaken and pick up a hoe and help you weed the blue lake beans.
ReplyDeleteThere are people who are diametrically opposed to your concepts of freedom and self-direction. They seek to impose their system, their beliefs and place their needs above your own.
They come in all colors, shapes, sizes and ages. They will not see the points of your reason, they will not be swayed by your finest speech. There is only once common form of communication that they still understand.
Violence. Through violence you must impose your will to be left the hell alone upon them. Through violence you must show them that alternates and affronts to your system are too painful to pursue. And the shittiest part of this whole deal is that now, here in American, we have progressed to the point where the threat of violence does not suffice any longer. The 2nd amendment is being picked apart. Your political process has been compromised. All that remains is naked violence.
It will happen. The parasitical classes, both high and low, have bled the productive class out. Collapse is coming. On a macro scale, worldwide. On a micro scale, in your community. You will make a choice in the future, to use violence or to submit to whatever social construct you have the fortune or misfortune to land in. Said constructs will then duke it out with the diametrically opposed constructs nearest them.
This fight will sink to the lowest common denominator. You cannot argue with mathematics people. Liberals do this and that's why they fail. The Lowest Common Denominator. Many of you know about the Knoxville TN tragedy, if not I strongly counsel you to read up on it via the web. This is a prime example of the lowest common denominator, this is what you will ultimately face. If you're lucky, it won't come at you under the aegis of government sponsorship, but I wouldn't rule it out. There is one answer for sick animals. Kill them. Destroy their nests. Burn them off the face of the earth. The ancients knew this. God knew this. Read some Joshua.
We are all going to hate this before it's over. I've written before that if you have a soul you're going to try to puke it out before the end. But we can do the job, and do it correct, so our kid's children don't have to do it again. Or we can cower under the thin umbrella of morality and let it wash us away.
Be as human... and humane, as you possibly can. But don't expect to scoop out the barn and exit smelling like honeysuckle.
God help us all.
Shouldn't the concept that illegal (esp. unConstitutionl) orders must be disobeyed, also apply to civilian government bureaucrats? Shouldn'g those who work for illegally appointed "Czars" be held accountable?
ReplyDeleteMosby I hear you and maybe better said I feel what you are conveying. It will be hard not to go Old Testament on those who are/will commit war crimes against thier brethren in the attempt to enslave them. I mean why is okay for DHS to aquire hollow point ammo (to be used against who?)while our armed forces cannot use them in combat?
ReplyDeleteIt is good of you to raise this issue. Tar Baby indeed.
As for you transgression "go and sin no more."
wl moses
You make a good speech about the moral high ground and the special forces not committing war crimes, but real history is a different story! SOG Studies and Observation Group did things they have lived to regret under orders from the government and the cia! The government will do it again and blame the patriots and it will get very bloody! I dread the day and pray it will never come, but I know it will be here shortly!
ReplyDeleteWe can't sit here and name off a bunch of bad guys who "got away with it" as justification for harsh treatment of our enemies. The bad guys are the bad guys because they do bad things, not because they lose; and just because the bad guys win doesn't make them the good guys. While I disagree with the argument that Nagasaki and Hiroshima were crimes against humanity, on the whole this article is spot on. Once we get the idea in our heads that the enemy is less human than us simply because they are our enemy we become no better than them and, even though we win the battle, we lose the war for our souls.
ReplyDeleteHaving said that, if war comes to the US (and there is no reason to believe it won't), it will be very hard to maintain the Law of Land Warfare simply because the opponents of freedom will have no problem using their brain damaged hippi followers as human shields when push comes to shove. What is the FREFOR supposed to do when a battalion of unarmed tree huggers is marched out in front of a battaltion of heavily armed jack-boots? We need to distinguish between crimes against humanity and harsh treatment in handling certain agents of the OPFOR.
I agree in principle that the LOLW should be followed. However, we have OPFOR that have and will commit crimes that are criminal, seditious and treasonous and that cannot go unpunished. We must work within the framework of the Constitution because that is our moral anchor as a people but as a legal truth says "The Constitution is not a suicide pact" also applies and we can't let legalisms constrain actions. The commissar working with the enemy IS the enemy and will need to be dealt with accordingly. Reinhard Heydrich most likely loved his wife and kids but that didn't rule out killing him anyway possible. Even if his wife and kids had been in that car with him I'm sure Jozef GabcÃk and Jan KubiÅ¡ would have still carried out the operation regardless of who was with Heydrich. These are the moral dilemmas that will face all patriots if what comes to pass.
ReplyDeleteLOLW ROE are necessary for units because they set a common boundary for all to adhere to and hopefully allow you to live with yourself, knowing that you didn't murder innocent parties. Imagine the confusion and side effects if each infantry platoon in DirkaDirkaStan got to decide its own ROE (who it was OK to target that day). If the SHTF and civil war breaks out in the US, just imagine what it'll be like (seriously, grab a beer, shut your eyes and start running through local scenarios) when every YouTube-trained neighborhood asshole with an AR-15 and multicams decides he's going to live out his Red Dawn fantasies and go out patrolling to whack who he thinks is a combatant. It'll be so crazy that even YOU will probably want .gov to come in and step on some necks. Shit, even a handful of visitors of this blog can't really agree on common ROE.. So folks, start figuring out how an irregular force operates in a 'cohesive' manner, while remaining decentralized. Otherwise, the actions of hundreds of unrelated, undertrained and uncoordinated guerillas just may be the catalyst that causes bystanders to DEMAND more .gov boots on the ground. I pray it doesn't come to that.
ReplyDelete"It's immoral to target non-combatants. There is no belief system I know of, anywhere in the world (even orthodox Islam) whose religious doctrinal texts says it's okay to murder people. Targeting non-combatants is murder. Killing in self-defense? Perfectly moral, perhaps even a moral imperative (I believe so). Killing in pre-emptive self-defense? Still moral. If I know a guy is hunting me, why shouldn't I be allowed to hunt and kill him first? Killing some woman because she married a young man who grew up to become your town commissar? Murder. Hell, maybe she despises what he's become just as much as you do, and is looking for a way to do her part. You don't know."
ReplyDeleteI think the crux of the debate here is this paragraph. Note the critical element in there: Killing self defense is perfectly moral. Anyone who thinks that I don't believe in the SELECTIVE targeting of key regime figures, IN THE EVENT OF HOSTILITIES (note that part DHS/NSA lackeys), has obviously not read this blog for very long. The point of this article was that you don't target non-combatants, not that you don't target anyone not wearing a fucking uniform. So, to simplify things, my stance: You don't shoot your neighbor because he voted for someone you don't like. That's contrary to the concept of Constitutional Liberty. You don't target the local commissar's wife and kids, just because her husband is a douchebag. Is there going to be collateral damage? Is the Pope Catholic? Is a fucking Rabbi circumcised? The point is that you make every effort to avoid them, by training to a level where you can execute your actions on the objective like an expert, rather than some dumbshit Elmer Fudd with an M4. I don't give two shits who you target, unless you are in my operational area. You want to start targeting wives and kids? Go for it. Then, when you bring the wrath on your own head, you're distracting it from my community. Remember, boys and girls, my primary area of concern is MY family, MY friends, and MY community. This blog is intended as a public service. That's why there's no advertising on it. Even the training I offer is really a public service. Have you priced similar training from any of the "major" schools? So, ultimately, if you disagree with my philosophy on non-combatants and the LOLW? I really don't give two shits. You're the one who has to sleep at night, assuming you survive the hell you'll bring on yourself. But, don't come to my blog and try to tell me I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about on dealing with the after-effects of killing people, or that I don't understand the "realities" of unconventional warfare.
ND,
JM
Very good clear answer on your position, thank you.
DeleteI'd agree that that paragraph is the crux.
ReplyDeleteThe key point is that warfare involves killing, but doesn't and should not devolve into murder.
The two are not interchangeable terms.
The commandment (from the Ten Commandments) says very specifically "Thou shalt not commit murder", not "Thou shalt not kill". (If anyone's version substitutes the word "kill", it's time to get a more accurate translation.) The very same scriptures go on to heartily commend making war and enforcing capital punishment, both very obviously entailing killing, but neither of which qualify as necessarily murder (unless one figures that God/the authors of the books in question/and/or everyone until 5 minutes ago was too stupid to notice the logical inconsistency inherent therein.)
My apologies for the Sunday School lesson, but it's a bit unavoidable when morality is under discussion in the Western world.
As far as "no belief system I know of", perhaps in order is a closer perusal of the Psalms wherein David - King David, that is, the guy who led entire Israelite armies to slaughter opposing nations, and "made his bones" by dropping Goliath with a head shot at sling distance - goes on in rapturous delight about dashing enemy babies' heads against rocks.
The Hebrew scriptures/Old Testament hesitate in no way to condemn David's moral shortcomings - adultery and murder - but nowhere is there any condemnation of the ecstatic songs about killing the enemies' infants, who were surely "non-combatants" as we understand the term 2500 years later.
There are multiple other biblical encouragements at other times and places to wipe every last living thing of enemy X off the face of the earth down to the last calf and kitten.
We may explain that by noting that someone (God, David, 2 millenia of theologians, etc.) has a differing view of who's culpable than mere humans do. Or simply dismiss it as a primitive view that greater moral enlightenment has enabled us to grow beyond.
But it's most certainly there, in a pretty important religious doctrinal text.
And it argues that things are never as cut and dried, nor as manageable, as we'd like them to be, should conflict come. Lacking a hotline direct to God, no one but a lunatic should be seriously advocating "Kill 'em all, and let God sort them out."
On that uncertainty, the need to try and hold the line somewhere this side of insanity despite the difficulties, and the negative consequences of failing to do so, we can hopefully all agree.
"It's a good thing war is so terrible, else we would all grow too fond of it."
Best regards,
-Aesop
Do any of the "kill the kiddies too" crowd recall a single successful revolutionary who acted under the "kill the kiddies too" banner and then, upon winning the war, became a pillar of morality, leading his people to a golden age of peace and freedom?
ReplyDeleteThought not.
You will reap what you sow.
p.s. You can tell the pimply faced, XBOX online soldier wannabes by the way they casually post about killing women and kids. Nobody who'd married the love of their life and raised a child from day one would consider for one second putting a bullet in some kindyschooler's head or his/her mom's for that matter.
I'll agree wholeheartedly with this.
DeleteAnd I will add that if someone, anyone who did such a thing to my child/ spouse has removed any and all protections my moral compass and laws of warfare would have provided.
Vengeance is mine sayth the Lord.
Unless it was my family slaughtered. Then there is nothing to live for but revenge. A dish best served cold. It is a very cold heart in a man who has buried his child due to the violence of others.
I hope I have cleared up why "collateral" damage is the worst damage of all. And why Jihadi's keep popping out of every nook and cranny every time a drone smokes a wedding party.
PS. please refer to Clinton's Serbian rules of engagement and the NDAA 2012 detention act for any questions of who is and is not a combatant. Good for the goose, good for the gander.
"That's the way he wants it. Well, he get's it."
JM, Since the voters have voted us here, then we have no moral right to try to change things. Being a democracy and all. Perhaps it is not our battle to deny the will of the people. After all, they have every right to enslave their neighbors by giving the government their vote to do so.
ReplyDeleteBut let us assume that their is that moment when liberty takes arms and actually... what? Win? Defeats the... enemy. Whoever that may be. We'll restore government. And... vote... again... our... demise? Because... our hearts and minds campaign took... root? Because the voters loved us, they'll... get it all right this time?
Now, you may think I am being a smart-a** or maybe just some fool. Maybe not. But certainly, this is a fact that must be considered. Because, depending on what is culled or not... this will certainly be the outcome. And we'll just vote our way right back to where we left off. After all, don't the voters get the government they deserve, despite mine and your protestations in a democracy?
Honestly, we know how hearts and minds work. There is always the threat of violence... at the end of a barrel. We'll be nice to you in a assertive way. We'll give you food and tend to your infirmities. Maybe build a school. But... you f*ck with us... Violence and death is always, even in the hearts and mind game... the ultimate motivator.
I am talking to you. I am not teaching you.
Curtis,
ReplyDeleteWe're not a democracy. We're a Constitutional Federal Republic. We vote for representatives who will achieve what we want them to achieve. They have an obligation, under our constitutional system, to not allow the "wants" of the majority, to interfere or encroach on the rights of the minority. Honestly? I don't see it as the voters' fault. They did exactly what they have been taught and conditioned to do: vote for what they WANT, and expect "majority rules." Ultimately, the issue too many have with this article is it shits on their fantasies of being a bad-ass killin' machine. You start killin' kids, who've done NOTHING wrong, in the view that "nits become lice," and you'll never win in the long-term. Even the people who tacitly support you will end up hating you, and looking for a way to off you. Has the genocidal paradigm worked? Sure. Look at Stalin. Fucker killed how many countless families? But look what he had to do to stay in power...he had to KEEP killing families. It's a long, steep drop once you step off that precipice. It's a jump I don't care to take, and I refuse to support the efforts of those willing to do so. That's just me though. Maybe it's a result of having my first child getting ready to turn a year old...maybe I'm a pussy.
You are far from a pussy. It is the nihilistic cowards that are happy to target innocents that are the huge pussies and it is an unwarranted escalation. It removes any semblance of legitimacy your movement has and makes you to appear in a similar light to a hadji fuck who has just shot up a market place.
DeleteOkay. I laughed heartily. Because I don't think you are a pussy. You gave me your answer. Personally, I don't think we should be going out and killing babies and children and mommies and daddies. Babies and children aside, adults are fair game if they are combatants. But again, one doesn't have to tote a gun to be a combatant. Of course, when mommy or daddy the combatant expires, their babies and children will hate us regardless... and they grow up. The only way out of this, as I see it, is that we are going to have to wear out their desire to keep fighting us and just give in. It also means, that we will have to somehow get people to rethink their baser desires and wrap the idea of the concept of liberty in their hearts... because they will eventually vote again. And if they do not rethink their patterns, they'll just vote again for the candy-man. And good luck to us. Look, it's just a whole bloody mess.
DeleteI will say though, that while I agree that people have been trained to think in certain ways, I also believe that people know right from wrong. They CHOOSE the path of least resistance and they CHOOSE the road that feeds their baser desires. It is easier for people to go with their feelings than it is to go with their conscious. Most people don't like conflict, even within themselves. So they just succumb to the path of least resistance. They know they shouldn't eat that doughnut, but damn, it sure looks good.
I get you on the whole killing machine mentality.
Peoples idea's are just as much warfare as opposing sides shooting at each other. Get the wrong idea in their head, and they will send someone to take care of you to... set you straight.
JM could not BE more correct!
DeleteExcellent! Well Said!
JM...you are exactly correct. Keep 'em comin'!!
ReplyDeleteIts a WAR. The objective is to win by any means necessary. This isn't a parlor game to be played by rules to pass the time of day. If you're still alive at the end of the day, you won. Doesn't really matter what you had to do to stay alive, now does it? If you played by "someone's rules" and are dead at the end of the day it doesn't really matter, now does it? Play all the moral mind games that you want if it makes you feel good; then try to convince someone else to play by your rules too. If they end up dead at the end of the day, now you have their blood on your hands too. Does that make you feel moral? Good for you!
ReplyDeleteIts a WAR. The objective is to win by any means necessary and stay alive. Its not anymore complicated than that. If you die, you lose. If you live you can make all the rules for the future until someone stands up and says, "I won't play by your rules." (that is by definition "freedom") Don't try to drag everyone down your high road, you're just going to get good people killed.
I like hearing all the arm chair commandos tell a former fucking Ranger what is and isn't warfare.
ReplyDeleteBINGO!
DeleteI'm reminded of a story I heard from the current unpleasantness...
ReplyDeleteIn the process of taking out a big bad-guy, we also killed a couple of innocents.
In keeping with THEIR cultural norms, one of our Officers went to meet the Father of one of the "collateral damage" cases - a ~8 year old girl.
As per usual, the officer explained the circumstances, expressed our deepest apologies, and handed over the requisite amount of cash that in said culture is supposed to constitute "restitution."
In wrapping up, his duties now complete, the officer also asked the Father if there was anything else We The People of the US could do to demonstrate our sorrow at this unfortunate event.
"Yes. Bring me the heads of 100 American soldiers."
We EARNED that enemy. This man and all of his male relatives will no doubt hate us until the day they die, and do anything they can to assist anyone with killing as many of "us" as possible.
I can only IMAGINE the hate I'd have for anyone remotely connected with causing the death of my daughter!
100 heads would not be NEAR enough!
Not even for my DOG!!
Which is why a war someplace like Afghanistan will never end unless we either play by their rules, or instill our rules into them.
ReplyDeleteYou decide which way is costlier and/or likelier.
The last time we met an enemy that really believed in death before surrender, (and they attacked us first as well, IIRC) we found it necessary to firebomb vast swaths of their country, nuke two or their cities and destroy their religion before the cycle ended.
It's BARELY possible there's some small lesson there...
-Aesop
Hey....why don't we just fucking leave the 'Stan and the other 100 countrieas we have troop in ?
DeleteDAN III
Pennsylvania
If you are very concerned about offending your enemies whom you have chosen to go to war with and kill because you can't work out a mutually agreeable solution to your differences; waging war may be be a bad choice for your conflict resolution. If you don't have the stomach for it please don't sit in your rocker and make up a code of conduct for war for other people to follow. Come down off the porch and lead by example. I don't like "do-gooders" especially when it comes to waging war.
ReplyDeleteJust don't get in my way when I'm fighting my enemies. We may have a friendly fire incident. You wage war your way and since we're fighting for liberty I'll wage it my way. If that doesn't mesh with how you see two people living in liberty then we're not on the same side fighting for the same thing anyway. No real surprise there.
@smithgroup,
DeleteIn a theoretical talk about war, it is not about offending an enemy. It would be about TWO things.
1. Keeping one's moral integrity together. If you fail to do that, you are no better than the person you are fighting. For some of us, we answer to a higher power and the ends do not justify the means.
2. Not turning others against your cause, because you will end up fighting them as well, and in turn be wiped out through attrition.
In a theoretical discussion of war, if you were to proceed with
"Just don't get in my way when I'm fighting my enemies. We may have a friendly fire incident"
,you might not be surprised to find others view you as a 'feral dog'.
There is a such thing as absolute right and absolute wrong. If there wasn't . . . our founding fathers wouldn't have had a leg to stand on by doing what they did. Even under the fog of war, absolute right and wrong still exists.
Hopefully you will consider your stance on moral relativism before you are in the theoretical position that you mention.
Enjoying your time off of school?
DeleteI wonder what my brothers think of THESE "children"...
ReplyDeleteLITERALLY stoning christians, right here in The United States of by-G*d-AMERICA!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=vnJBW49afzg
Best post you've ever written, and maybe the most important to the liberty movement. Well done.
ReplyDeleteNo Sir,you can not argue with posers.
ReplyDeleteBill Fletcher
Liberty Valance
"Its a WAR. The objective is to win by any means necessary."
ReplyDeletePresumably the war is being fought for a reason. It doesn't do any good to win if you've become the enemy you set out to defeat.
JM thank you for posting these points to bring some clarity to the issue we may all soon face and for basing them on the best SF thinking. Quite ironic isn't it, that most of us who respond here have come from honorable service where we were the upholders of the moral high-ground and now find ourselves being painted by this administration and media as immoral terrorist?
ReplyDeleteMy own great-great-grandfather was accorded the same status after taking a load of grapeshot through the torso while assaulting the Union fortification in Plymouth NC. Many of the men he died with had already served the Union honorably only to become "terrorist" when they needed to protect their family and homes.
My point in posting this? Only to say, history is about to repeat itself, because we as a whole have not learned how to deal with the Leviathan that reared itself 152 years ago.
Even though his side won that battle, they later lost the whole war, simply because they ran out of beans and bullets, not will to fight for their homes.
While we try to decide who we will face and how to deal with them, the Leviathan already knows and simply bides its time. We are so far behind the curve that by the time the majority decides what to do, it will be too little too late.
Like you, I am no fan of fighting for causes already lost before they begin and like you, I will wade into the dripping maw of any beast to protect my family and home.
May God have mercy on us all.
Yes. May God have mercy on us all. Thanks for the family history. Perhaps the civil war is more applicable to what's coming, than anything else.
DeleteIt is those who resort to any means that bury the "moral." Did the judges at Nuremburg have clean hands? What do the people of Carthage have to say about morality? Did the Viet Minh obey the laws you specify? Eaxctly how did the British defeat the Boers or the South benefit from adhering to the laws you mention?
ReplyDeleteThere are winners and losers. Winners do not long for what never existed. This is the worst kind of tripe. It is the sort of BS that we are indoctrinating our troops with. Anyone what to guess what our enemies have to say?
I won't argue our hosts passion or his expertise, he has both in greater measure than I do.
ReplyDeleteHowever this is a practical and rational argument, not a religious one.
The New Testament may have preached peace but he also said be not of the world , render unto Caesar and all that. So if you are going to be in the world, be in it.
From a religious POV, there really aren't war crimes and unless your strain of the faith excludes the Old Testament ,God is fine with that.
And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain. Deuteronomy 2:34
And we utterly destroyed them, ... utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. Deuteronomy 3:6
And thou shalt consume all the people which the LORD thy God shall deliver thee; thine eye shall have no pity upon them. Deuteronomy 7:16
Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. Deuteronomy 13:15
But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth. Deuteronomy 20:16-17
And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword. Joshua 6:21
I'd advise against faith based arguments and stick to practical ones. Granted an ideal polity has fewer dissenters but balancing the need to keep people on the same page but give them the ability to dissent is hard.
Especially when the Left ends up in the same boat we are in and while they can protest, nothing can change. This why I think that if FreeFor defeats OpFor it will be unable to put in Constitutional Government for generations if the nation is to large.
We've never had in our history for starts. There are complex reasons for this but suffice it to say the ideals don't match our nature or reality.
Second its impractical under the circumstances which will crisis after crisis for decades and as the stress level build someone will pull the plug and go totalitarian. They always do.
And third, even if they win FreeFor has no legitimacy to speak of. They won't be able to solve problems and have many many enemies. All those 40 million people (Probably more really, thats just the tip of the iceberg) depending on Food Stamps and without jobs or hope have no cause to support you and lots of cause to put in their version of Mr. Funny Mustache so long as they are fed. And yes this means by force. You don't get to go home.
Also think about the fact that every child of a deceased OpFor person will be a foe of the new regime for generations, every Leftist who can no longer get any political traction (many of which will also take up the gun as being liberal doesn't mean you can't fight and the no killing rule has been suspended) every holdout of the old regime and all the Nomenklatura and the corporate scum and all that. Fighting them with hands tied is not going to be easy.
Revolutions like the Founder one are rare to the point of a anomalous and to the best of my knowledge cannot happen in complex urban societies. However "nihil novi sub sole" and all that, these problems are not old. In the past thats why wars often came down to "crushing your enemies, seeing them driven before you, hearing the lamentations of their women."
If OpFor wants its Constitutional Government I'd advise them to consider a smaller multi-state solution where they can control self sufficient land and have a ready made population of people who want what they want. They'll probably be analogous to Israel surrounded by foes but its at least something and as the Soviet Empires implosion has shown, its doable maybe without violence.
Anonymous, you can make all the relative and historical arguments you want about the nature of man but the fact remains, in all incivil wars the majority opinion will win in the end and the majority opinion will support who remains the good guys and kill the evil. The lefts useful idiots who currently live on the sweat of the producers of this nation will be the first to go when their glorious revolution comes. The "smaller multi-state solution" is already being considered
ReplyDeletebut it may not come to that if enough people wake up to the fact they are now officially slaves of the federal government. When we served in the armed forces we knew it had a time stamp on it. The government took from us so we had no qualms taking what we earned in return. This new thing with the Affordable Healthcare Act will be the final straw because it taxes your right to breath from cradle to grave.
I brougt up the subject of following an unlawful order on a tightly moderated section of a popular gun board. The consensus among the non-coms was that pvt snuffy was not capable to understand what an unlawful order was. I cited the Calif SWAT team that took down a little old lady after Katrina. All under the watchful eyes of a section of OK NG soldiers. The main arguement was that the Sgts and the Officers above would know what constitutes an unlawful order. And letting the line soldiers decide and act on their own would be to invite anarchy. But, no officer was ever punished when it was later discovered that the Mayor had no power to issue an order to confiscate guns, nobody in the military chain was held accountable. It was an unlawful order. Can you imagine what would have happened to the Spec-4 that told the SWAT team to stand down, and when they did not comply he responded with deadly force? And just as importantly, would it have been worth it?
ReplyDeletedirkmanchest,
ReplyDeleteAny order that comes down through the chain of command will be presumed to be legal. It will certainly be construed so by the JAG when he prosecutes anybody who refuses to follow the order. This goes for anyone, whatever his rank. Not following an order that one thinks to be illegal means that one has already decided to take whatever punishment that a court martial decides to dish out under the UCMJ.
Given the record of the Officer Corps in cravenly submitting to anything that the Liberals wish to inflict upon the military, don't expect too much support from the chain of command when you refuse to carry out some morally odious order. The days of MG Edwin Walker are over.
Modern morality and manners suppress all natural instincts, keep people ignorant of the facts of nature and make them fighting drunk on bogey tales.
ReplyDelete